Harsh 4th to 5th gear

27402 Views 67 Replies 22 Participants Last post by 200_S_AWD, 11 d ago

fri200

Discussion Starter · Sep 10, 2018

Hi,

I have a 2015 200S 2.4. Since I purchased the vehicle with 18,000 miles, it's had a really hard shift from 4th to 5th gear. This generally only happens when the trans temp is at 165. It took several trips to the dealership for them to recognize there was a problem, which they finally did. So far they've flashed, re-flashed, replaced the valvebody, and ultimately the transmission with a rebuilt one. Now - they're once again, denying my concerns. I've reached out to Chrysler and they can't help unless there is a "diagnosis." Vehicle is at 42,000 miles now - about 10,000 on the current transmission. Has anyone else had the same problem and have any idea what might be going on here? Tips on getting the dealership to help?

41 - 60 of 68 Posts

fltru103

· #41 · Feb 18, 2019

llcamino said:
Thanks for the heads up. I just went and re-read the settlement info. Just to clarify to anyone else reading this....it appears to me that the statement about having to have the dealer verify the complaint symptom only applies to complaints made AFTER November 16, 2018 (when we were notified of the settlement). This is, I believe, a safeguard measure by the court to ensure that people don't attempt to pile up the complaints hoping to get a payout. So any complaint made before 11/16/18 is considered a valid complaint. Any complain made after 11/16/18 must be verified by the dealer in order to qualify. Plus they allow for one additional unverified complaint.

At least that's my I interpretation of the language for what it's worth.

I think we all read something a little different.
Let me say what I think it means.
Regardless of the dates of the complaints ( most happened early on anyway ) you would need 6 separate times visiting the dealer, and the dealer would need to document ( write on the repair order you were given ) stating that your complaint was valid and that the dealer was able to reproduce your specific condition ... 6 times. Then you need one ( 1 ) additional unverified complaint.
Also, the notice does say those complaints must be on, or before Nov. 16, 2018. Not after that date.
Again, complaints made before Nov. 16, 2018 are only considered valid IF the dealer was able to reproduce, verify and document your complaint.

Here is the link to the settlement page and questions.
Answers to questions can be found in the FAQ section.
https://secure.dahladmin.com/GRANIL

Black Knight

· #42 · Feb 18, 2019 (Edited)

JoeLasVegas said:
Why do you keep acting like the ZF9 is fine?
Normal automatic transmissions are not clunky, those **** dog clutches are.

Doesn't matter anyway, you always reply to posts acting like this is the best car ever and has never had issues.

I spent money on this car because my RDX was totalled on a Saturday night by a red light runner, went to Carmax Sunday, wanted a mid size sedan with a V6 and a big infotainment screen, and they had a 200, so it fit the bill. I didn't test drive for hours to find out if the transmission was great or not, it was moving fine in normal driving and that was good enough, but within a week I realized it was shifting hard when you drive moderately hard.

You haven't read very many of my posts to know how "I always reply" regarding the 200 and you haven't been here long - especially if you think I have never had issues with the 3 200's I have owned.

No, I am not negative Norman on every post as you are - I am actually enthused about this vehicle rather than posting the same complaints over and over etc...

It's not a rental car (ha technically I suppose it can be), for most people a vehicle is a serious investment not to just buy cause you are in a jam at the last second with a 2 minute test drive around the block - no need to drive it for HOURS to know what it's like but some research and more than a 5 minute test drive is in order, otherwise it would make one not so savvy if they just went an bought a car and then complain about it - things BREAK sure but how it's designed and especially how it drives... you had your chance before you bought it. "Buyer beware" goes from a pack of gum to a house in a free enterprise society. Maybe you should have researched the "ZF9"... and the rest of the vehicle before laying down tens of thousands of $$ on it. I did - mostly on here before I bought it - I almost didn't. I am so glad that I did.

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llcamino

· #43 · Feb 18, 2019

There are several key factors when reading this. I wish I could copy/paste and highlight on my phone but I can't so I'll do my best to explain.

The first factor is the first definition of what qualifies you for cash or trade. Which is 3 "transmission-related complaints" on or before the notification date (11/16/18).
It then immediately defines a transmission-related complaint, in bold, which does not mention a dealer verifying the problem. It then it shows the table to map out the payments. FULL STOP. If you took it in 3 or more times you get the payout based on the table.

Everything after that pertains to what to do if you made complaints AFTER 11/16/18.

It states that IF you made 3 complaints before 11/16/18 (we are still under the established definition of a complaint in bold at this point, which requires no dealer verification) you MAY include SUBSEQUENT complaints submitted AFTER that date. It then states that "THESE complaints will be counted" and then goes on to define dealer verification. "These" is referring to the "subsequent" complaints made AFTER the date, which fall under a different definition of a transmission-related complaint and involve dealer verification.

So in essence, what they are saying is that ANY complaint before the date counts. IF you made at least 3 before the date (which puts you in the payout category) then you can up your total of complaints IF the subsequent (after 11/16/18) complaints meet the criteria of having been verified by the dealer.

If you read the actual court case, the plaintiffs provide multiple examples of evidence that FCA knew there were "defects" (court document wording not mine)in the design of the ZF9. Things like delaying the launch to car review groups because of known transmission problems. So customers with early problems aren't required to have the dealer verify the problem because FCA already admitted to the problem based on the evidence presented. The requirement for dealer verification is only in place to keep people who already qualify for a payout from receiving the notice and running to the dealer 3 more times to try to up their payout from $800 to $2000. But if you did take it in after the date, and the problem is verified, you can still qualify for more money.

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fltru103

· #44 · Feb 18, 2019 (Edited)

llcamino said:
There are several key factors when reading this. I wish I could copy/paste and highlight on my phone but I can't so I'll do my best to explain.

The first factor is the first definition of what qualifies you for cash or trade. Which is 3 "transmission-related complaints" on or before the notification date (11/16/18).
It then immediately defines a transmission-related complaint, in bold, which does not mention a dealer verifying the problem. It then it shows the table to map out the payments. FULL STOP. If you took it in 3 or more times you get the payout based on the table.

Everything after that pertains to what to do if you made complaints AFTER 11/16/18.

To provide clarity. This is direct from the settlement page.
If you can show that you made at least three (3) transmission-related complaints on or before November 16, 2018, you may submit subsequent transmission-related complaints that are made to a FCA US dealership after that date. These will be counted as transmission-related complaints for purposes of determining benefits, but only as follows: (i) all documented transmission-related complaints that a FCA US dealership verifies in writing as a condition which it was able to reproduce or otherwise attests to be a valid complaint; and (ii) one documented but unverified transmission-related complaint made to a FCA US dealership, meaning your complaint was not duplicated or otherwise found to be valid by a FCA US dealership.

It states that IF you made 3 complaints before 11/16/18 (we are still under the established definition of a complaint in bold at this point, which requires no dealer verification) you MAY include SUBSEQUENT complaints submitted AFTER that date. It then states that "THESE complaints will be counted" and then goes on to define dealer verification. "These" is referring to the "subsequent" complaints made AFTER the date, which fall under a different definition of a transmission-related complaint and involve dealer verification.

See my above direct quote from the settlement page. Yes, if you complained of a transmission issue before ( with documentation ) you can add complaints after that date. All 6 must be verified however. A copy of said complaint, without the dealer saying they too found a problem, is an unverified complaint.

So in essence, what they are saying is that ANY complaint before the date counts. IF you made at least 3 before the date (which puts you in the payout category) then you can up your total of complaints IF the subsequent (after 11/16/18) complaints meet the criteria of having been verified by the dealer.

Wrong ! A complaint that is not verified only counts towards your one complaint of an unverified issue. Not ANY complaint before said date.
I'll put the exact wording here again. all documented transmission-related complaints that a FCA US dealership verifies in writing as a condition which it was able to reproduce or otherwise attests to be a valid complaint.

If you read the actual court case, the plaintiffs provide multiple examples of evidence that FCA knew there were "defects" (court document wording not mine)in the design of the ZF9. Things like delaying the launch to car review groups because of known transmission problems. So customers with early problems aren't required to have the dealer verify the problem because FCA already admitted to the problem based on the evidence presented. The requirement for dealer verification is only in place to keep people who already qualify for a payout from receiving the notice and running to the dealer 3 more times to try to up their payout from $800 to $2000. But if you did take it in after the date, and the problem is verified, you can still qualify for more money.

I did not read the court case, so an admission of guilt by FCA is an unknown to me, at this point.
I know FCA/Chrysler said they had software/programming issues and wanted to change that before release. I never heard of a defect in the actual transmission.
Again, reread the requirement for verification.
If you had at least 3 verified complaints before the cut-off date, further complaints that are verified do count.
Otherwise you need 6 complaints, in total that the dealer said they can reproduce and verify.

Bottom line. The warranty extension is for one year, 6 total, or 100,000 miles ... TOTAL.
Most of us have close to that now in mileage terms.
If I were to submit a claim, I would take the cash.

In all fairness, I will say I did take back our 200 for several checks of the transmission. Nothing was verified ( no faults ) and I was satisfied the transmission was acting and performing as designed. The service writer stated on the repair order the transmission "experienced no issues".

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chesterlouie11

· #45 · Oct 8, 2019

fri200 said:
I appreciate your response. I must admit - I had trouble finding anyone else with this same issue, even here on the forums. That being said - I feel like what you describe doesn't feel like what happens with mine. It honestly feels like the engine does not cut power for the shift and it just "bangs" into gear. In addition - I've heard mechanical grinding on a 5-4 downshift several times. It irritates me to "live with it" - I know several other 200 owners who DO NOT have this problem. I read in a different thread that asking the dealership to do a PROXI alignment might help, not sure if I'm willing to pay out of pocket for something that "might" help. Theboss1242 - have you ever taken yours to the dealership for the 4th to 5th gear shift?

My 200C AWD is at the dealer now with this exact problem,. You are not alone. car bangs hard at times when it shifts from 4-5 gear like you hit a pothole. It also will not downshift when slowing down at times. The RPM's stay high and the car won't shift down when you are slowing down and it wants to keep going right into the car in front of you until it finally finds the gear and bucks you to a stop. Piece of garbage. I believe Chrysler new this and dumped them on the market then discontinued them so they can now wash through the system without a recall. There are literally thousands of these complaints. I filed with the HTSA and I would suggest everybody does so a recall can be performed. The dealer is about to put a selenoid and harness in the car, but that will get me past the warranty before it breaks again. sigh. NEVER again Chrysler!

fltru103

· #46 · Oct 9, 2019

chesterlouie11 said:
My 200C AWD is at the dealer now with this exact problem,. You are not alone. car bangs hard at times when it shifts from 4-5 gear like you hit a pothole. It also will not downshift when slowing down at times. The RPM's stay high and the car won't shift down when you are slowing down and it wants to keep going right into the car in front of you until it finally finds the gear and bucks you to a stop. Piece of garbage. I believe Chrysler new this and dumped them on the market then discontinued them so they can now wash through the system without a recall. There are literally thousands of these complaints. I filed with the HTSA and I would suggest everybody does so a recall can be performed. The dealer is about to put a selenoid and harness in the car, but that will get me past the warranty before it breaks again. sigh. NEVER again Chrysler!

What exactly did Chrysler "dump" on the market ?

The car ? Some of us would say they are a good car. Many of us with well over 100K miles, still humming along.
The transmission ? It's not like your fathers old Chevy with a Powerguide 2 speed. Hopefully the dealer can fix your problem. Those transmissions are in a couple million vehicles by a couple of different manufacturers, I might add.
As for recalls, the UF platform has several recalls. Some deal with the transmission.

Again, hopefully they can solve your vehicles issues. Having an expensive car that isn't running right can be stressful.

Bob Paris

· #47 · May 6, 2020

fri200 said:
Hi,

I have a 2015 200S 2.4. Since I purchased the vehicle with 18,000 miles, it's had a really hard shift from 4th to 5th gear. This generally only happens when the trans temp is at 165. It took several trips to the dealership for them to recognize there was a problem, which they finally did. So far they've flashed, re-flashed, replaced the valvebody, and ultimately the transmission with a rebuilt one. Now - they're once again, denying my concerns. I've reached out to Chrysler and they can't help unless there is a "diagnosis." Vehicle is at 42,000 miles now - about 10,000 on the current transmission. Has anyone else had the same problem and have any idea what might be going on here? Tips on getting the dealership to help?

I recently noticed a hard shift from 4th to 5th with my 2016 200c w/ 3.6L V6. Took to the dealer at 43,4300 miles and they followed the instructions in TSB 21-053-18: "TCM flash update for shifting enhancement. Performed transmission quick learn & test drive."

Hard shift is gone and car seems even more peppy.

Reactions: 4

Sleeper200c

· #48 · May 13, 2020

70000mi trans is fine. Still shifts like new. Shifts the same on my every day back n fourth too work routes. I drive it pretty hard sometimes and will cruise along a bit at higher speeds. The 4-5 bang will always be a part of this trans and seldom happens now, prob cause I've learned how to make it not do it. Up shifts are good, down shifts suck, lunges forward a bit longer than you'd expect or want before engine braking comes on. No use for 9th. And I read this entire thread over....jeez 😄😄😄😄 was gettin heated there for a while!

Bob Paris

· #49 · May 13, 2020

Sleeper200c said:
70000mi trans is fine. Still shifts like new. Shifts the same on my every day back n fourth too work routes. I drive it pretty hard sometimes and will cruise along a bit at higher speeds. The 4-5 bang will always be a part of this trans and seldom happens now, prob cause I've learned how to make it not do it. Up shifts are good, down shifts suck, lunges forward a bit longer than you'd expect or want before engine braking comes on. No use for 9th. And I read this entire thread over....jeez 😄😄😄😄 was gettin heated there for a while!

Why not have the dealer do the flash update? And 9th gear is the greatest for MPG. The other day is was going down the street in 9th gear at 1250 RPM. Nice.

Sleeper200c

· #50 · May 13, 2020

Bob Paris said:
Why not have the dealer do the flash update? And 9th gear is the greatest for MPG. The other day is was going down the street in 9th gear at 1250 RPM. Nice.

They did the update....and it still does it. Youll see...

Reactions: 1

200_S_AWD

· #51 · May 13, 2020

There were a few hardware changes in the ZF-9 from 2015 to 2016. FCA was finally able to make needed improvements after being bound by the supply contract with ZF.
FCA was only allowed software changes after getting the OK to do so up to that point.
From Allpar:
"The nine-speeds had numerous teething problems (that were not unique to Chrysler). The company noted that the 2016 model year had many improvements; the company did not reveal what they were, but it seems to be a combination of hardware and software.
There were numerous software updates, the final major ones likely being issued in April and May 2016, covering low speed drivability and upshift and downshift quality. These updates are said to greatly improve transmission performance, and seem to resolve most outstanding software issues."

Font Parallel Screenshot Number

After performing the latest and greatest software update, it is important to have a Quicklearn performed:

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2016/SB-10074980-5290.pdf

It is also important to have the PROXI calibrated:

www.allpar.com

Fixing hard shifts with the missing PROXI

Some readers have reported rough shifting after work was done on their car. This may not be a bad transmission, but a missed step in the repair: skipping the “PROXI alignment,” which updates information in all the car’s systems. Matthew Libanio, for example, had his TCM (transmission control...

www.allpar.com

The PROXI wasn't actually missing on my 200, but the tech disabled, then re-enabled the TCM PROXI (like a reset?).
It has shifted smooth as butter ever since.

I had experienced the harsh 4-5 upshift while cresting a hill in a loaded car. BAM! I had to check in the rearview mirror to make sure that I hadn't been rear-ended. 😳

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N8200C

· #52 · May 14, 2020

I have been watching the automatic gear shifts a bit more intently since reading some of this thread. I found that with my driving style it usually skipped over 4th gear entirely. My only complaint about this trans is the shift from 2 to 3 is too slow. 0-60 time is probably crippled by this but it's only ever noticable if you want to be going 70 by the time you're halfway down the expressway ramp.

I was initially a little disappointed by the tendency for the engine to speed match instead of compression braking during manual downshifts but have since found that tapping the brake after the shift fixes the issue.

I noticed that most of the complaints/issues I've seen with this trans are in cars with the 4cyl. Could it be that since the small engine relies on the transmission too much whereas the pentastar just uses it to find the perfect cruising gear at any speed to boost economy?

Given that the v6 produces the max torque of the i4 at around 2500rpm I would assume that the typical shift patterns in the 4 cylinder cars involve a lot more high rpm hard downshifts. ie. Losing speed during a hill climb and hard downshifting to maintain where the v6 can generally hold any gear it wants as long as you're at about 3000rpm.

If that is true, I would conclude that it's probably not a fantastic transmission but if you have a big enough engine, you aren't likely to notice much.

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Bob Paris

· #53 · May 15, 2020

Sleeper200c said:
They did the update....and it still does it. Youll see...

Find another dealer and give them a shot

200_S_AWD

· #54 · May 15, 2020

Sleeper200c said:
They did the update....and it still does it. Youll see...

For a 2015, the last TCM update was in 12/18 under TSB # 21-001-18"C" (this is an obsolete, but similar copy here):

https://static.oemdtc.com/TSB/21-001-18.pdf

The AdaptiveLearn (not to be confused with Quicklearn) procedure must be done before releasing the car back to the customer:

http://www.wk2jeeps.com/Misc/Cherokee/KL_TSB/KL_21_012_16.pdf

As a final detail, the PROXI alignment must be reset. Mine was 'present' and not 'missing', so the tech turned it off and then back on again.
I have been satisfied with the vast improvement in shift quality since.
You have to state at the service counter what you want done when you bring the car in. Many techs will perform the full fix, but some may not be aware of the full procedure or see the PROXI is there and move on. See:

Proxi Configuration Alignment – Appcar DiagFCA – diagnostic tool

appcar-diagfca.com

appcar-diagfca.com

If you like the dealer, stick with them. If you have a history of shift quality concerns with them, let them know. A good dealer will waive the diagnostic fee if you have had a history with the same concern before. Best of luck to you with this. 😀

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Sleeper200c

· #55 · May 15, 2020

Ill give it a try...thanks!

justinmo87

· #56 · Sep 12, 2021

fri200 said:
Hi,

I have a 2015 200S 2.4. Since I purchased the vehicle with 18,000 miles, it's had a really hard shift from 4th to 5th gear. This generally only happens when the trans temp is at 165. It took several trips to the dealership for them to recognize there was a problem, which they finally did. So far they've flashed, re-flashed, replaced the valvebody, and ultimately the transmission with a rebuilt one. Now - they're once again, denying my concerns. I've reached out to Chrysler and they can't help unless there is a "diagnosis." Vehicle is at 42,000 miles now - about 10,000 on the current transmission. Has anyone else had the same problem and have any idea what might be going on here? Tips on getting the dealership to help?

I also have a 2015 200S AWD with the same problem but it is the 3.6 Pentastar. I don't think its an issue with the motor. However, people with this problem don't seem to have any other problems with the transmission yet. However, I discovered that when I use the Paddleshift when going between 4th and 5th the problem is non-existent. I believe its happening during a sweet spot in the motor rpm's when the transmission knows to shift that isn't so sweet. I notice it more when its shifting between 4th and 5th when the car is going slightly uphill or downhill but it has done it while level. It's like it doesn't shift to 5th soon enough. But, at the same time, if you keep your foot on the gas and continue to speed up and let it shift, it won't do it either. Its a super weird issue that seems impossible to pin down but I actually think its from dogging it a little too hard. Makes me think a really small tip/edge of a gear tooth is gone OR its just the 9speed transmission in general. If you have seen the inside of one of these tranny's it makes you wonder how it all works so smoothly in sync; like its a design flaw because maybe the tranny is too complex for its own proper function.

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200_S_AWD

· #57 · Sep 14, 2021

Input shaft speed must match output shaft speed for a dog-clutch engagement/disengagement.
The PCM/TCM are supposed do this seamlessly and imperceptibly.
The latest and greatest software has improved harsh shifts. Follow this with a Quicklearn and PROXI reset.
The 2015 transaxle is given an extended warranty if needed.
If any of these haven't been done yet, I highly recommend them:

PCM:

Flash: Diagnostic And System Improvements – 2015 Chrysler 200 – FCA

chrysler.oemdtc.com

TCM:

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2017/MC-10121787-9999.pdf

PTU:

21-008-16 Chrysler Technical Service Bulletin

21-008-16 Chrysler Technical Service Bulletin

www.tsbsearch.com

www.tsbsearch.com

ESM:

08-082-14 Chrysler Technical Service Bulletin

08-082-14 Chrysler Technical Service Bulletin

www.tsbsearch.com

www.tsbsearch.com

DTCM:

03-003-16 Chrysler Technical Service Bulletin

03-003-16 Chrysler Technical Service Bulletin

www.tsbsearch.com

www.tsbsearch.com

Quicklearn:
SB-10074980-5290.pdf
PROXI:

www.allpar.com

Fixing hard shifts with the missing PROXI

Some readers have reported rough shifting after work was done on their car. This may not be a bad transmission, but a missed step in the repair: skipping the “PROXI alignment,” which updates information in all the car’s systems. Matthew Libanio, for example, had his TCM (transmission control...

www.allpar.com

Warranty Extension (expires soon):

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10162546-9999.pdf

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Tony S.

· #58 · Mar 3, 2022

fri200 said:
Hi,

I have a 2015 200S 2.4. Since I purchased the vehicle with 18,000 miles, it's had a really hard shift from 4th to 5th gear. This generally only happens when the trans temp is at 165. It took several trips to the dealership for them to recognize there was a problem, which they finally did. So far they've flashed, re-flashed, replaced the valvebody, and ultimately the transmission with a rebuilt one. Now - they're once again, denying my concerns. I've reached out to Chrysler and they can't help unless there is a "diagnosis." Vehicle is at 42,000 miles now - about 10,000 on the current transmission. Has anyone else had the same problem and have any idea what might be going on here? Tips on getting the dealership to help?

I had the same problems with my original V6 engine on my 200c. It happens usually when it's downshifting out of the 5th gear. Mine kinda went away but comes back from time to time. I didn't waste any money on it as everyone seems to have this problem. That said.... today I had a new Pentastar engine put in as my radiator hose came off a second time.. and sadly while on the highway and it messed up my engine beyond repair. 12K later... I now have a new engine, new radiator etc.. so I start over. Only had 65k miles on it when the radiator parts decided to break. Dumping all my fluid on the ground...

Joshua Lee Thaler

· #59 · Apr 20, 2022

I

genes said:
Sadly, mine does the same thing and this is transmission #3 for me. Transmission is two years old and the hard 4-5 shift didn't start for about a year after it was installed. It doesn't do it all the time, perhaps 10% of the 4-5 shifts, but when it does do it, it feels like the car has been hit in the rear by another vehicle. It is actually more pronounced than a manual transmission if your foot slips off the clutch. I can't force it to do the hard shift and the dealer never drives it enough to make it do it, so they can't document it. I am just living with it. it is no wonder to me that FCA is in trouble. They can't even fix the cars that they have on the road right now.

Theboss1242 said:
To be honest its well documented in the forums that almost all 2015 Chryslers on all models experience a soft shift to a hard shift from 4th to 5th gear and also from 2nd to 3rd gear. It is normal and I'm sorry to say but you'll have to maybe live with it. My 200c does the exact same thing. Granted its a soft to mild shift nothing hard but I always know when its on 3rd or 5th gear.

I would like to jump in on this. If anyone finds a fix please let me know. I bought a 2016 200c 3.6 a few years ago, and the transmission is my only complaint so far. It slams into 5th if I get off the throttle at around 55mph at times. It also feels like it hesitates to shift at times on harsh acceleration. It acts like it has to think about it. The dealer refreshed it, but it is still the same.

200_S_AWD

· #60 · Apr 20, 2022

4

Welcome to the forum. If you had it into the dealer for a hard shift issue within the past year, what they did should still be covered.
I had a hard 4-5 shift when cresting a hill. Not all the time, but when it did happen I had to look in the rear-view mirror as I thought I was just rear-ended. After the services below, it has shifted as smooth as butter.

Have them review what was done for the 'refresh'.

1) You want the latest and greatest software version in the PCM/TCM.
2) You want the Quicklearn performed.
3) You want the TCM/BCM PROXI reset.

Font Parallel Number Screenshot Document

Font Parallel Number Screenshot Document

Font Number Screenshot Document

From Allpar. My PROXI was still present. The tech toggled it off and back on again:

Font Sky Darkness Screenshot Circle

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