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Harsh 4th to 5th gear

32K views 67 replies 22 participants last post by  200_S_AWD 
#1 ·
Hi,

I have a 2015 200S 2.4. Since I purchased the vehicle with 18,000 miles, it's had a really hard shift from 4th to 5th gear. This generally only happens when the trans temp is at 165. It took several trips to the dealership for them to recognize there was a problem, which they finally did. So far they've flashed, re-flashed, replaced the valvebody, and ultimately the transmission with a rebuilt one. Now - they're once again, denying my concerns. I've reached out to Chrysler and they can't help unless there is a "diagnosis." Vehicle is at 42,000 miles now - about 10,000 on the current transmission. Has anyone else had the same problem and have any idea what might be going on here? Tips on getting the dealership to help?
 
#2 ·
To be honest its well documented in the forums that almost all 2015 Chryslers on all models experience a soft shift to a hard shift from 4th to 5th gear and also from 2nd to 3rd gear. It is normal and I'm sorry to say but you'll have to maybe live with it. My 200c does the exact same thing. Granted its a soft to mild shift nothing hard but I always know when its on 3rd or 5th gear.
 
#3 ·
Sadly, mine does the same thing and this is transmission #3 for me. Transmission is two years old and the hard 4-5 shift didn't start for about a year after it was installed. It doesn't do it all the time, perhaps 10% of the 4-5 shifts, but when it does do it, it feels like the car has been hit in the rear by another vehicle. It is actually more pronounced than a manual transmission if your foot slips off the clutch. I can't force it to do the hard shift and the dealer never drives it enough to make it do it, so they can't document it. I am just living with it. it is no wonder to me that FCA is in trouble. They can't even fix the cars that they have on the road right now.
 
#4 ·
I didn't know FCA "is in trouble" ?
Total sales are up year to year.
They are profitable.

Sadly, any mass produced vehicle can have problems. With the 9 speed transmission, they have tweaked and modified the software, fixed wiring issues and otherwise smoothed out some of annoying problems.
But not everyone is happy.

I still think it's one of the best cars our family has owned.
Does the transmission shift differently ?
Yes, but mostly when cold.
I would buy another one ( if they made them still ) in a heartbeat.
 
#6 ·
I've had 3 Chrysler 200's. The first was a 2013 200S V6, I traded that for my current 15' 200 S AWD and I leased a 2013 200 Limited V6 (previous gen. "Limited" equates to the current "C" for features and options etc...) for my wife. All three from the same dealer and salesperson.

The 15 200 S AWD has been the best one so far. It shifts fine, always has.

If they still made them, who knows, I would most likely buy a 4th one a few years from now.

FCA is doing just fine regardless of if I agree with the fact they stopped making the 200 or any mid-sized or compact sedan.
 
#7 ·
I appreciate your response. I must admit - I had trouble finding anyone else with this same issue, even here on the forums. That being said - I feel like what you describe doesn't feel like what happens with mine. It honestly feels like the engine does not cut power for the shift and it just "bangs" into gear. In addition - I've heard mechanical grinding on a 5-4 downshift several times. It irritates me to "live with it" - I know several other 200 owners who DO NOT have this problem. I read in a different thread that asking the dealership to do a PROXI alignment might help, not sure if I'm willing to pay out of pocket for something that "might" help. Theboss1242 - have you ever taken yours to the dealership for the 4th to 5th gear shift?
 
#9 ·
This ZF is the worst trans I've ever had on any cars, always rough, 2-3 kicks, paddle shifting is useless, it just revs up the engine instead of providing engine braking, I know, rev matching... useless feature, and if you accelerate hard and then need to brake hard, the trans will keep pushing the car like it doesn't know you're braking, so for 2-3 secs, it's like you're stepping on the brake and gas pedals at the same time, try it if you don't believe me.
Car is fine, engine is great, power is good, that all gets 9, but the trans gets a 4/10, can live with it, so I do, but I don't love it either.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Just because most of us disagree with you doesn't mean we work for Chrysler. I don't.

The ZF9 and ZF8 are both great transmissions but the ZF8 is old news. More and more car companies are using the ZF9 now, including Audi and Acura.

I agree with Pennhaven in that no, not a perfect car - but I didn't see anything else better for the $$ at the time I bought that was brand new.
 
#15 ·
If they replaced the trans with a rebuilt one, not a new one, then it confirms the old ZF9's are crappy, supposedly the newer ones are good to go, but I'll bet you'll have a hard time convincing the dealer to put a new one in, just drive hard until it breaks, then use you powertrain warranty to get new one this time, not some old ass rebuilt unit. That's what I'm hoping for in my 200, drive it hard until it dies then get a new trans that will be nice and smooth.
 
#16 ·
Hate to tell you this. The warranty will replace the transmission with a rebuilt unit, not a "new" one.
The rebuilt units have the latest updates and shouldn't have an issue either.

BTW, I don't work for Chrysler either. Just happens the 200 we have is a good car, returns excellent fuel mileage and has been problem free ( except for radio module replacement ) and the recalls were all performed.
I also have my car ( a Durango ) that uses the ZF 8 speed. It is a good transmission too.
 
#19 ·
Hate to say it but try a different dealer. I had to do that once with my previous 20 the dealer did an out of warranty repair free since it failed once before while in warranty - water pump noise.

They should have record of your previous visits to the other dealer and their diagnosis/repairs etc...
 
#26 ·
.....my 2 cents, mine does it occasionally, as well as most do. For me mostly at certain speeds and loads but it's not often. It's common and I don't believe there's a fix, it's just a quirk with this zf-9. I think there's a pcm update but doesn't fix the prob. I've been livin w it since new I'm at 54000 mi no probs. (So far)
 
#27 ·
Is it a little harsh or slams between 4th and 5th - in other words there is a strong shudder? If it's harsh, I agree it's just how it's programmed. If it's slamming, I would take it in right away.

Changing the firmness between shits is an option with some programmers with older vehicles, slushy sloppy lazy shifting is annoying to me, I like the higher performance firmer shifts.

I like the shift firmness on mine, so much so that I have my TCM back to one of the first tunes. It's funny all the "fixes" they released - I have had no lights, warnings, or symptoms of any kind of problem and I am back on the original TCM tune, been on it for about a year or so now. Maybe before it hits 100K I will ask them to put it back to the latest tune with all the "fixes" - then I will look at HP tuners etc... :cool:
 
#37 ·
If this is true then:

A. Why is FCA settling a class action lawsuit for a TON of money? I'm looking at a payout of $2000 cash or $4000 trade because I have 6 documented cases of taking the car in for harsh shifts. It literally feels like I've been rear ended when going from 4 to 5. It happens randomly and I cannot deliberately recreate it.

B. Why does the class action suit only cover 2015 200s and Cherokees. 2016's have the "same" transmission.

C. Why does my 2016 Cherokee with essentially the same Engine and transmission (with more miles than my 2015 200) not have this problem?

Its amazing to read everyone on here defending this transmission and saying that's how it's supposed to work. Meanwhile FCA has essentially admitted to a HUGE problem to be offering up that large of a Class Action payout.
 
#30 ·
I like the zf-9 so far, but it is overkill for this..or any U.S. car. No Autobahn here!!!! You will never see sixth gear when playing around (around 130 mph for me) and never be able too cruise at 150 mph at 2800 rpms so....?? 7 speed plenty for me. I think the s mode is really good I use on faster open roads and hgwy. Paddles a plus for those occasions.
 
#31 · (Edited)
It wasn't designed to reach it's top speed anywhere near it's top gear. Those are yesterday's cars, old news. Initial acceleration and mostly fuel economy are what newer cars are designed for. No one wants a CVT, but the advantages can't be denied so the compromise is having far more gears than what seems necessary.

If anything, I think it could have used a 10 or 11 speed.

Having owned TWO first gen 200's and one 2nd gen, they improved the gearing drastically, especially passing on the highway, although I liked how close 2nd and 3rd were with the old 200 when taking off the line..

Here's why more gears are better: Say you have an Infinity G37 - 7 speed auto. You set the cruise @ 75MPH level grade no wind. What are your RPM's? Whatever they are, guaranteed it's going to be higher than what the Chrysler 200 is at even if it's only in 8th. Result? Lower RPM= better fuel economy.

If you had a 10 or 11 speed, depending on how they are geared, now you have even more gears to accelerate in and more overdrives. The Chrysler 200 has 3 or 4 overdrives (actually more from a technical standpoint). You can't go into 8th or 9th at 40MPH in a 200, but 7th you can, whereas in an old 5 or 4 speed auto, you can be in top gear @ 40,... your RPM's are higher in overdrive on the highway - now you use more fuel.

More overdrives = better economy, more lower gears = better acceleration because gears multiply torque. More of both = performance + economy. They got it right, they just needed to maybe have ZF tune it better so people wouldn't complain about how odd it is or harsh shifting etc... for it to be more successful. I like it just how it is.
 
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#34 ·
What did you spend your $$ on? A car with a fast trans or a slow clunky shush box?

3 gears + a naturally aspirated 4cyl are fine for this country too.
 
#33 ·
YES! I agree with all that. More gears also makes for a busier transmission...which is fine....which alot of people dont like when its in d mode cause its kind of sluggish responding. Some back roads i cruise in d mode it goes into 8 and im doin 50ish and i accelereate back to 5 then 6.....7.8....back too 5 etc. No difference in mileage for me. Im just not on long hgwy rides enough too take full advantage. And when I do take a long trip its s mode and ill paddle shift for overdrive when needed. im a more aggressive , performance orientated driver so Im not content feather foot on the accelerator hoping for 9th!
Its still a good trans....works for me.
 
#35 · (Edited)
We all got both!
 
#36 ·
:) Indeed!
 
#40 ·
Thanks for the heads up. I just went and re-read the settlement info. Just to clarify to anyone else reading this....it appears to me that the statement about having to have the dealer verify the complaint symptom only applies to complaints made AFTER November 16, 2018 (when we were notified of the settlement). This is, I believe, a safeguard measure by the court to ensure that people don't attempt to pile up the complaints hoping to get a payout. So any complaint made before 11/16/18 is considered a valid complaint. Any complain made after 11/16/18 must be verified by the dealer in order to qualify. Plus they allow for one additional unverified complaint.

At least that's my I interpretation of the language for what it's worth.
 
#41 ·
I think we all read something a little different.
Let me say what I think it means.
Regardless of the dates of the complaints ( most happened early on anyway ) you would need 6 separate times visiting the dealer, and the dealer would need to document ( write on the repair order you were given ) stating that your complaint was valid and that the dealer was able to reproduce your specific condition ... 6 times. Then you need one ( 1 ) additional unverified complaint.
Also, the notice does say those complaints must be on, or before Nov. 16, 2018. Not after that date.
Again, complaints made before Nov. 16, 2018 are only considered valid IF the dealer was able to reproduce, verify and document your complaint.

Here is the link to the settlement page and questions.
Answers to questions can be found in the FAQ section.
https://secure.dahladmin.com/GRANIL
 
#43 ·
There are several key factors when reading this. I wish I could copy/paste and highlight on my phone but I can't so I'll do my best to explain.

The first factor is the first definition of what qualifies you for cash or trade. Which is 3 "transmission-related complaints" on or before the notification date (11/16/18).
It then immediately defines a transmission-related complaint, in bold, which does not mention a dealer verifying the problem. It then it shows the table to map out the payments. FULL STOP. If you took it in 3 or more times you get the payout based on the table.

Everything after that pertains to what to do if you made complaints AFTER 11/16/18.

It states that IF you made 3 complaints before 11/16/18 (we are still under the established definition of a complaint in bold at this point, which requires no dealer verification) you MAY include SUBSEQUENT complaints submitted AFTER that date. It then states that "THESE complaints will be counted" and then goes on to define dealer verification. "These" is referring to the "subsequent" complaints made AFTER the date, which fall under a different definition of a transmission-related complaint and involve dealer verification.

So in essence, what they are saying is that ANY complaint before the date counts. IF you made at least 3 before the date (which puts you in the payout category) then you can up your total of complaints IF the subsequent (after 11/16/18) complaints meet the criteria of having been verified by the dealer.

If you read the actual court case, the plaintiffs provide multiple examples of evidence that FCA knew there were "defects" (court document wording not mine)in the design of the ZF9. Things like delaying the launch to car review groups because of known transmission problems. So customers with early problems aren't required to have the dealer verify the problem because FCA already admitted to the problem based on the evidence presented. The requirement for dealer verification is only in place to keep people who already qualify for a payout from receiving the notice and running to the dealer 3 more times to try to up their payout from $800 to $2000. But if you did take it in after the date, and the problem is verified, you can still qualify for more money.
 
#44 · (Edited)
There are several key factors when reading this. I wish I could copy/paste and highlight on my phone but I can't so I'll do my best to explain.

The first factor is the first definition of what qualifies you for cash or trade. Which is 3 "transmission-related complaints" on or before the notification date (11/16/18).
It then immediately defines a transmission-related complaint, in bold, which does not mention a dealer verifying the problem. It then it shows the table to map out the payments. FULL STOP. If you took it in 3 or more times you get the payout based on the table.

Everything after that pertains to what to do if you made complaints AFTER 11/16/18.
To provide clarity. This is direct from the settlement page.
If you can show that you made at least three (3) transmission-related complaints on or before November 16, 2018, you may submit subsequent transmission-related complaints that are made to a FCA US dealership after that date. These will be counted as transmission-related complaints for purposes of determining benefits, but only as follows: (i) all documented transmission-related complaints that a FCA US dealership verifies in writing as a condition which it was able to reproduce or otherwise attests to be a valid complaint; and (ii) one documented but unverified transmission-related complaint made to a FCA US dealership, meaning your complaint was not duplicated or otherwise found to be valid by a FCA US dealership.
It states that IF you made 3 complaints before 11/16/18 (we are still under the established definition of a complaint in bold at this point, which requires no dealer verification) you MAY include SUBSEQUENT complaints submitted AFTER that date. It then states that "THESE complaints will be counted" and then goes on to define dealer verification. "These" is referring to the "subsequent" complaints made AFTER the date, which fall under a different definition of a transmission-related complaint and involve dealer verification.
See my above direct quote from the settlement page. Yes, if you complained of a transmission issue before ( with documentation ) you can add complaints after that date. All 6 must be verified however. A copy of said complaint, without the dealer saying they too found a problem, is an unverified complaint.
So in essence, what they are saying is that ANY complaint before the date counts. IF you made at least 3 before the date (which puts you in the payout category) then you can up your total of complaints IF the subsequent (after 11/16/18) complaints meet the criteria of having been verified by the dealer.
Wrong ! A complaint that is not verified only counts towards your one complaint of an unverified issue. Not ANY complaint before said date.
I'll put the exact wording here again. all documented transmission-related complaints that a FCA US dealership verifies in writing as a condition which it was able to reproduce or otherwise attests to be a valid complaint.
If you read the actual court case, the plaintiffs provide multiple examples of evidence that FCA knew there were "defects" (court document wording not mine)in the design of the ZF9. Things like delaying the launch to car review groups because of known transmission problems. So customers with early problems aren't required to have the dealer verify the problem because FCA already admitted to the problem based on the evidence presented. The requirement for dealer verification is only in place to keep people who already qualify for a payout from receiving the notice and running to the dealer 3 more times to try to up their payout from $800 to $2000. But if you did take it in after the date, and the problem is verified, you can still qualify for more money.
I did not read the court case, so an admission of guilt by FCA is an unknown to me, at this point.
I know FCA/Chrysler said they had software/programming issues and wanted to change that before release. I never heard of a defect in the actual transmission.
Again, reread the requirement for verification.
If you had at least 3 verified complaints before the cut-off date, further complaints that are verified do count.
Otherwise you need 6 complaints, in total that the dealer said they can reproduce and verify.

Bottom line. The warranty extension is for one year, 6 total, or 100,000 miles ... TOTAL.
Most of us have close to that now in mileage terms.
If I were to submit a claim, I would take the cash.

In all fairness, I will say I did take back our 200 for several checks of the transmission. Nothing was verified ( no faults ) and I was satisfied the transmission was acting and performing as designed. The service writer stated on the repair order the transmission "experienced no issues".
 
#48 ·
  • 70000mi trans is fine. Still shifts like new. Shifts the same on my every day back n fourth too work routes. I drive it pretty hard sometimes and will cruise along a bit at higher speeds. The 4-5 bang will always be a part of this trans and seldom happens now, prob cause I've learned how to make it not do it. Up shifts are good, down shifts suck, lunges forward a bit longer than you'd expect or want before engine braking comes on. No use for 9th. And I read this entire thread over....jeez 😄😄😄😄 was gettin heated there for a while!
 
#51 ·
There were a few hardware changes in the ZF-9 from 2015 to 2016. FCA was finally able to make needed improvements after being bound by the supply contract with ZF.
FCA was only allowed software changes after getting the OK to do so up to that point.
From Allpar:
"The nine-speeds had numerous teething problems (that were not unique to Chrysler). The company noted that the 2016 model year had many improvements; the company did not reveal what they were, but it seems to be a combination of hardware and software.
There were numerous software updates, the final major ones likely being issued in April and May 2016, covering low speed drivability and upshift and downshift quality. These updates are said to greatly improve transmission performance, and seem to resolve most outstanding software issues."

Font Parallel Screenshot Number


After performing the latest and greatest software update, it is important to have a Quicklearn performed:

It is also important to have the PROXI calibrated:
The PROXI wasn't actually missing on my 200, but the tech disabled, then re-enabled the TCM PROXI (like a reset?).
It has shifted smooth as butter ever since.

I had experienced the harsh 4-5 upshift while cresting a hill in a loaded car. BAM! I had to check in the rearview mirror to make sure that I hadn't been rear-ended. 😳
 
#52 ·
I have been watching the automatic gear shifts a bit more intently since reading some of this thread. I found that with my driving style it usually skipped over 4th gear entirely. My only complaint about this trans is the shift from 2 to 3 is too slow. 0-60 time is probably crippled by this but it's only ever noticable if you want to be going 70 by the time you're halfway down the expressway ramp.

I was initially a little disappointed by the tendency for the engine to speed match instead of compression braking during manual downshifts but have since found that tapping the brake after the shift fixes the issue.

I noticed that most of the complaints/issues I've seen with this trans are in cars with the 4cyl. Could it be that since the small engine relies on the transmission too much whereas the pentastar just uses it to find the perfect cruising gear at any speed to boost economy?

Given that the v6 produces the max torque of the i4 at around 2500rpm I would assume that the typical shift patterns in the 4 cylinder cars involve a lot more high rpm hard downshifts. ie. Losing speed during a hill climb and hard downshifting to maintain where the v6 can generally hold any gear it wants as long as you're at about 3000rpm.

If that is true, I would conclude that it's probably not a fantastic transmission but if you have a big enough engine, you aren't likely to notice much.
 
#55 ·
Ill give it a try...thanks!
 
#56 ·
I also have a 2015 200S AWD with the same problem but it is the 3.6 Pentastar. I don't think its an issue with the motor. However, people with this problem don't seem to have any other problems with the transmission yet. However, I discovered that when I use the Paddleshift when going between 4th and 5th the problem is non-existent. I believe its happening during a sweet spot in the motor rpm's when the transmission knows to shift that isn't so sweet. I notice it more when its shifting between 4th and 5th when the car is going slightly uphill or downhill but it has done it while level. It's like it doesn't shift to 5th soon enough. But, at the same time, if you keep your foot on the gas and continue to speed up and let it shift, it won't do it either. Its a super weird issue that seems impossible to pin down but I actually think its from dogging it a little too hard. Makes me think a really small tip/edge of a gear tooth is gone OR its just the 9speed transmission in general. If you have seen the inside of one of these tranny's it makes you wonder how it all works so smoothly in sync; like its a design flaw because maybe the tranny is too complex for its own proper function.
 
#57 ·
Input shaft speed must match output shaft speed for a dog-clutch engagement/disengagement.
The PCM/TCM are supposed do this seamlessly and imperceptibly.
The latest and greatest software has improved harsh shifts. Follow this with a Quicklearn and PROXI reset.
The 2015 transaxle is given an extended warranty if needed.
If any of these haven't been done yet, I highly recommend them:

PCM:
TCM:
PTU:
ESM:
DTCM:
Quicklearn:
SB-10074980-5290.pdf
PROXI:
Warranty Extension (expires soon):
 
#58 ·
I had the same problems with my original V6 engine on my 200c. It happens usually when it's downshifting out of the 5th gear. Mine kinda went away but comes back from time to time. I didn't waste any money on it as everyone seems to have this problem. That said.... today I had a new Pentastar engine put in as my radiator hose came off a second time.. and sadly while on the highway and it messed up my engine beyond repair. 12K later... I now have a new engine, new radiator etc.. so I start over. Only had 65k miles on it when the radiator parts decided to break. Dumping all my fluid on the ground...
 
#60 ·
Welcome to the forum. If you had it into the dealer for a hard shift issue within the past year, what they did should still be covered.
I had a hard 4-5 shift when cresting a hill. Not all the time, but when it did happen I had to look in the rear-view mirror as I thought I was just rear-ended. After the services below, it has shifted as smooth as butter.

Have them review what was done for the 'refresh'.

1) You want the latest and greatest software version in the PCM/TCM.
2) You want the Quicklearn performed.
3) You want the TCM/BCM PROXI reset.
Font Parallel Number Screenshot Document




Font Parallel Number Screenshot Document


Font Number Screenshot Document


From Allpar. My PROXI was still present. The tech toggled it off and back on again:

Font Sky Darkness Screenshot Circle
 
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