[mikemaj82]

Cool.. Did I miss the price somewhere? I think the poll would be better with a price, as I would buy one for the right price.... Nice work

See post #2 on page 1.

 

[Planefixer]

That resonator restricts.

Here is a stock dyno, I'm sure you can find more online if you look:

Here is another 200's dyno with a DIY CAI and same flowmaster muffler:

And here is mine from today: My car has 42K miles on it. No other mods than my CAI and Flowmaster muffler.

I MADE 257 WHP. I MAKE MORE POWER.

I'm looking at the chart of the vehicle with the flowmaster... it seems the Flowmaster muffler adds the torque to the chart rather than your airfilter.

Your dyno run has the same reading as the vehicle with just the Flowmaster muffler.

Dynos just read torque and horsepower is a mathematical function of the torque reading.

It seems very strange that both torque readings are the same but your horsepower number is more......

Horsepower is a function of torque over time.

So all that can be said is that the CAI allows more torque in a higher RPM

However torque in the lower RPM is what gets a car moving from a dead stop.

I'll wait until K&N releases their dyno numbers as they use the stock resonator.

I think their torque numbers will be better....

 

[New2Chrysler2015]

That resonator restricts.

Here is a stock dyno, I'm sure you can find more online if you look:

Here is another 200's dyno with a DIY CAI and same flowmaster muffler:

And here is mine from today: My car has 42K miles on it. No other mods than my CAI and Flowmaster muffler.

I MADE 257 WHP. I MAKE MORE POWER.

I'm looking at the chart of the vehicle with the flowmaster... it seems the Flowmaster muffler adds the torque to the chart rather than your airfilter.

Your dyno run has the same reading as the vehicle with just the Flowmaster muffler.

Dynos just read torque and horsepower is a mathematical function of the torque reading.

It seems very strange that both torque readings are the same but your horsepower number is more......

Horsepower is a function of torque over time.

So all that can be said is that the CAI allows more torque in a higher RPM

However torque in the lower RPM is what gets a car moving from a dead stop.

I'll wait until K&N releases their dyno numbers as they use the stock resonator.

I think their torque numbers will be better....

Hey Planefixer,

We get it. You don't want the CAI. The rest of us however like what we see and we are all pretty inteligent as well. Most of us I am sure know how to read a Ft. I test. We know what torque is and what Horsepower is. We know how each related to speed and acceleration. Some us even know how to work on airplanes.

 

[BLU200S]

Hey Planefixer,

We get it. You don't want the CAI. The rest of us however like what we see and we are all pretty inteligent as well. Most of us I am sure know how to read a Ft. I test. We know what torque is and what Horsepower is. We know how each related to speed and acceleration. Some us even know how to work on airplanes.

Some of us can even fly them

 

[PITT]

I'm looking at the chart of the vehicle with the flowmaster... it seems the Flowmaster muffler adds the torque to the chart rather than your airfilter.

Your dyno run has the same reading as the vehicle with just the Flowmaster muffler.

DID YOU WATCH MY VIDEO??????????

In it you will see that by replacing the stock resonator and rubber hose with a 3" pipe, it gains 10 lbs of torque. How is it the same?

The other dyno chart is a DIY CAI that is from the T-body to the air filter too, that is why the torque matches. (This also proves that the resonator steals torque)
My CAI makes 10 more HP at the wheels than his does.

Watch the video and you'll see for yourself. Take your engineer hat off and see "live" results.

 

[Black Knight]

I agree a CAI isn't going to be the same as adding a supercharger so I get why maybe planefixer is bringing up some counterpoints, always good to have a counterpoint if for the only reason to solidify the positive results.

Regardless those dyno numbers are pretty impressive. 257WHP.. that's good. It's also why I am trying to find out EXACTLY WHAT MUFFLER IS PITT USING, INLET AND OUTLET AND PART NUMBER. Not typical of me but I would prefer to start with the exact same setup as PITT does (under the hood) INCLUDING THE INTAKE since he has actually done a dyno and shown a gain in performance. I know things work a little funny at altitude but I would like to give it a shot, maybe make some modifications if I don't have the same/similar results.

Where I live and drive we have ~12% less power out here because of less oxygen in the air so the intake is already over-sized for the engine as is the exhaust, I see and smell (raw fuel) many enthusiasts modifying their vehicles that run way too rich when adding or modifying turbos and also people that lose power when they add intakes and exhaust that are too large. No such thing as "not enough back pressure" or "too much air" it's just that the flow can be altered to a point where instead of a gain, people take a loss in power if not done right - flow characteristics. Either way I think I want to give this setup a chance at some point. Looks like the one big factor is the tubing to replace stock rubber one on the throttle body.

Either that or F'it and just wait a few years until I can get an actual sports car or musclecar - not discrediting the 200, just saying..

 

[Fernboy61]

Guys,

This is a very interesting thread and it is OK for people to ask questions to PITT and challenge his results but I want it done with respect. I will monitor the thread closely as it contains very interesting information and I want to keep the thread clean.

Please act accordingly.

 

[Black Knight]

If I said something that seemed disrespectful I apologize, whatever I said wasn't intended that way, and as I said I am interested in actually buying but with a different brand of filter. I am not being sarcastic.

 

[psykostevo]

Dynos just read torque and horsepower is a mathematical function of the torque reading.

Someone here speaks my language. Torque is the ONLY output that your engine produces. Horsepower is a calculation to relate that torque output back to the relative torque output of a horse given engine RPMs.

Horsepower = (Torque X RPM)/5252.............hence why HP and TQ should always be equal at 5,252rpms (in case anyone was curious)

 

[Pennhaven]

...Regardless those dyno numbers are pretty impressive. 257WHP.. that's good. It's also why I am trying to find out EXACTLY WHAT MUFFLER IS PITT USING, INLET AND OUTLET AND PART NUMBER. Not typical of me but I would prefer to start with the exact same setup as PITT does (under the hood) INCLUDING THE INTAKE since he has actually done a dyno and shown a gain in performance...

Unfortunately, since there are no dyno results for the addition of only the Flow Master without a CAI (or, vice versa, CAI without the Flow Master), we don't know for a fact that the muffler actually improves flow versus stock. What might eventually give us a clue is when we see K&N's dyno results with their CAI and a stock exhaust. Comparing that to PITT's test with his new CAI (stock resonator version) plus the Flow Master should show what difference could be attributable to the exhaust, since the CAI setups look pretty similar.

Sure, I know we'd expect the Flow Master to flow better than the much heavier stock muffler, but I'm not of aware of any comparative dyno or acceleration testing of the same vehicle with and without the Flow Master that proves it.

Of course even if the Flow Master alone doesn't help, it's still possible that it's capable of better flow than stock, but that the stock intake can't match the flow, in which case the exhaust by itself wouldn't show any improvement. In that case It could require the combination of a better flowing intake to make the muffler worthwhile. Again, the problem is that without dyno testing all of the combinations no one can say for sure where any gain specifically comes from.

Finally, to what I think is one of planefixer's points, PITT is showing a gain of a little over 6 percent. Without repeat testing, it's not impossible that the testing margin of error might be nearly high as the gain.

I'm really not trying to shoot down PITT's efforts. I appreciate what he is doing and I think it's a good bet the improvement he is claiming is real. But unfortunately without additional testing it's still not 100% certain. Also it's not possible to know whether it is coming all from the CAI or from both the CAI and the exhaust.

 

[psykostevo]

It seems very strange that both torque readings are the same but your horsepower number is more......

The reason that the HP numbers are more on the Kurgan Motorsports Dyno run is that the Torque output at the peak HP Rpm range was higher.

The Kurgan run made about 210wtq @ 6,600 rpm and the JR Racing run made about 185wtq @ the same relative RPM.

 

[Black Knight]

Sure, I know we'd expect the Flow Master to flow better than the much heavier stock muffler, but I'm not of aware of any comparative dyno or acceleration testing of the same vehicle with and without the Flow Master that proves it.

Well, we kinda do. His muffler + his custom intake = 257WHP. That's what I am trying to get at - literally. I just want the PN of the muffler and/or dimensions and his intake with a different filter or no filter and I will get one.

Nothing is 100% certain, K&N's dyno or his custom filter, and it's great to see someone (like us not some corporation) do a before and after dyno, either way I am in... except the muffler where no one can answer me the inlet and outlet size of PITT's muffler. (where's the banging head smiley)?

 

[Pennhaven]

Well, we kinda do. His muffler + his custom intake = 257WHP. That's what I am trying to get at - literally. I just want the PN of the muffler and/or dimensions and his intake with a different filter or no filter and I will get one.

Nothing is 100% certain, K&N's dyno or his custom filter, and it's great to see someone (like us not some corporation) do a before and after dyno, either way I am in... except the muffler where no one can answer me the inlet and outlet size of PITT's muffler. (where's the banging head smiley)?

Actually the dyno shows only that the CAI makes 257 along with the Flowmaster. But we don't know how much the Flowmaster is helping or if it even helps at all.

From an earlier thread. This muffler.

 

[Fernboy61]

Black knight, I wasn't addressing you specifically. I have no issue with people arguing and challenging, it forces everyone to be better, but I didn't like the tone in some of the posts previous to yours. Since this post is really interesting, I want to keep it clean as much as possible.

 

[psykostevo]

And when K&N comes back to do their before and after testing, we will all gripe about how they are comparing it on the same car, but 9 months apart in time and how that's not as relevant as if they had installed and done pulls back to back in the same environment, when the engine had the same amount of wear, etc.

I won't trust K&N 100% because they will likely use whatever low average baseline pull they make and compare it to whatever high average "after" pull that they later make. Not to mention that their dyno pulls were done in 2nd gear, which gives little to no window of opportunity for engine load to play a factor. 2nd gear is a 2.84:1 ratio given my quick Google research, which is nearly equivalent to many car's first gear rations. You would need to dyno in 5th gear to get a true 1:1 gear ratio to be most accurate.

 

[PITT]

Also it's not possible to know whether it is coming all from the CAI or from both the CAI and the exhaust.

Its coming from both, but how much from each mod? That's the question.

 

[PITT]

except the muffler where no one can answer me the inlet and outlet size of PITT's muffler. (where's the banging head smiley)?

2.5 inlet 2.25 outlets PT# 8425152

Watch this: https://youtu.be/rKpn1l8v5aQ

 

[psykostevo]

Part of the truth for why some air intakes yield better wheel horsepower is due to how they manipulate the air temperature sensor readings. In reality, if you can actually draw in colder air with the cold air intake (hey, that's half the point, right?!) then you will be allowing the computer to use a different set of data to command it's behavior. You can sit here and go back and forth all day long about how it is or isn't relative to the actual density of the air. Sure, air density is a factor, but altering the air temp sensor reading will make the ECU command a different amount of spark advance.......and more or less power in relation.

This is why a lot of times I attempt to explain to my customers that a tune is typically THE MOST advantageous modification you can make for the car. And this is also often whey people see equations like this:

Tune-only: +10whp
Intake-only: +10whp

Intake + Tune = Still only 10whp.......


When looking at the tune file of many of these Pentastars, it appears that the base spark advance calculation was done with a set intake air temperature. In many cases I see 86F degrees. So anything above that air intake temperature will reduce spark advance with varying effects relative to severity of intake temperature.....likewise anything colder than that will have the effect of adding timing advance inverse to the drop in temperature.

In extremely hot air temperatures it can pull as much as 16 degrees of timing advance, and in severely cold weather it can add as much as 7 degrees of spark advance.

On top of that if you actually DO manage to increase the density in terms of gallons of air per second, you can actually cause a negative effect on performance because you will force the ECU to use the lower columns on it's Spark Advance tables, which are actually set with lower amounts of timing advance.

Example:

0.52 g/sec @ 2,450RPM has 32 degrees of base timing advance
0.60 g/sec @ 2450RPM has 23 degrees of timing advance

So in that case you lose 9 degrees of base timing advance by altering the air density calculation to believe that there is more air coming in.

 

[Black Knight]

Actually the dyno shows only that the CAI makes 257 along with the Flowmaster. But we don't know how much the Flowmaster is helping or if it even helps at all.

From an earlier thread. This muffler.

Agreed.

Thanks

 

[Black Knight]

2.5 inlet 2.25 outlets PT# 8425152

Watch this: https://youtu.be/rKpn1l8v5aQ

Thanks